Open Forum: What do you believe about Homosexuality?
The last few posts I’ve done have shown me something. Whatever people believe, for whatever reason they believe it- when they feel it is threatened they also feel they must vocally defend it. That can lead to endless cycles of fruitless arguments and hurt feelings.
In some ways, many of us are the same. Regardless of whether or not we believe homosexuality is sin, we still believe in loving and serving our neighbors.
So I want to have an experiment. I will ask a series of questions that ANYONE is welcome to answer in the comments, and expound on as they see fit. I do not want there to be a single argument in this thread, so any comment that attacks the words of another will be immediately deleted. Feel free to say things such as, “person X- could you clarify this statement” or “person Z, are there Bible verses to back that sentiment” but do not say, “person Y, I think you are wrong” or I’ll delete.
We can all live together peaceably. We MUST learn to.
So here are the questions:
- Do you believe homosexuality is a sin? Can you clarify why/why not?
- Do you know anyone who is(has been) in a same sex relationship?
- Have you known anyone when they were first discovering or questioning homosexual feelings?
- If you are the member of a church body, do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed towards homosexuals in your church?
- If you are a Christian or follower of a particular faith- if someone came to you expressing interest in your faith but was unwilling to leave a homosexual relationship in order to do so, would you still offer to teach them?
Let’s really think about these things, and think about their implications. I’m interested to see what you all believe, and why.
DKN replied:
OK, I’ll start.
1. Love is not a sin, therefore, homosexuality is not a sin.
2. I know and have known over the years more gays/lesbians/bis/trannies than I can count. Dozens.
3. Yes, in college there were several young men and women around me that were coming out. I saw some of them rejected, spit on and ridiculed by their families and friends and some who were accepted with welcome arms and told by myself (at times) and their families and friends - “Well, good, we are glad you know you are gay because we have known it for years!!”
4. N/A
5. You cannot “teach” people to stop being gay, just as you cannot “teach” people to stop being straight. And if you think that you can, you are fooling yourself. Before anyone starts in on me, stating examples of people they know who have “switched” to straight, let me just point out that you are not inside of their brain. We don’t really, actually, truly know that the feelings have stopped regardless of the life they may be leading.
There is a man from my hometown who tried to be straight - married, had kids, was part of a very religious community. He finally stopped lying to himself after years of waking up everyday, praying to god that he would die that day. He even attempted suicide a few times, which is all too common. When he finally came out he lost everything. ALL of him family and most close friends. But at least he’s now alive and doesn’t want God to take him out everyday. He’s finally happy.
April 11, 2008 at 2:01 pm. Permalink.
Tony replied:
1. In many religions the holy text associated with that religion denounces homosexuality. I define sins as acting against the moral tenants described in a holy text. So by that definition it is certainly a sin. Just as it is a sin for a Jew to eat pork.
From an ethical standpoint I don’t consider the act to be unethical. It harms no one as long as a sexual act is not forced on another human being, so abiding by those simple conditions I take no issue with it.
Looking at it from the perspective of “is it natural so should it be allowed?” I say it is a natural condition that is displayed in many animals. Even the concept of sexual preference is displayed in animals, I’ve seen it personally with livestock.
2. Yes several.
3. Not been in the thick of it at the time, I wasn’t around as much when my best friend went through his stage of decisions but I do know how he described it.
4. Not applicable to me, though I basically live in the oilfield which could be considered in some ways to be quite similar in opinion. Though out here we keep our opinions on such matters to ourselves. Out here the basic consensus is that if you are gay, no one wants to know, and if you choose to let people know you probably won’t be received all that warmly by your coworkers. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but I’ve not come across them. Do I agree with this opinion, no, do I maintain the status quo for the sake of my paycheck, yes.
5. No question I would. Some of my strongest spiritual beliefs were challenge and taught to me by a gay person. Homosexuality does not exclude spirituality or faith.
April 11, 2008 at 2:17 pm. Permalink.
transplantingme replied:
1. being homosexual is not a sin, practicing homosexuality is a sin. but no more a sin than any other sin.
2. yes, my brother is gay.
3. yes, once again my brother and it was an awful experience.
4. at our current church, i happen to agree but i have been at other churches where i haven’t.
5. yes, i would share Christ with them.
April 11, 2008 at 2:22 pm. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
1. Love is not a sin therefore homosexuality is not a sin. God creates us perfectly in his own image for a reason. He alone has a plan to which we have no clue. He makes us perfect just the way we are.
2. Yes, many people.
3. Actually, I thought extensively on my own journey about my own sexuality. I don’t know if this counts. Basically testing my own boundaries to see what my feelings were on the subject. I found for myself that sex feels good with whoever - but I didn’t have any emotional attachment to women. Therefore not gay. That extra whatever just simply wasn’t there for me.
4. I am not a member of an organized religion at this time, as I have not found one to adequately fill my spiritual needs. My relationship with God however is extremely strong and satisfying and I live within his word every minute of my life. I encourage others to do so too!
5. I would absolutely have open arms to anyone coming to me for guidance. Even if they loved to have sex with dogs. Eventually, I would try and find the psychological need there and help them work through it, but would I judge them and turn them away? No. I would however demand that they immediately seek help if they were abusing children/women/animals in any way. If it were appropriate I would call the police. Would I then abandon them? No. I would visit them in jail, and help them through the process of making amends and learning the right way.
April 11, 2008 at 2:46 pm. Permalink.
DKN replied:
Wait shush - I think i misunderstood number 5. I apologize.
If I were religious, I would definitely welcome anyone who is gay to share and learn about my faith, even if some ancient text that guides me says that it is “wrong”.
April 11, 2008 at 2:52 pm. Permalink.
PolitiPornster replied:
1. I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. The God I worship is a loving god and thus would not damn nor smite anyone practicing love.
2. I have plenty of gay and lesbian friends. I cannot imagine what they would be like if they WERE straight. They are gay not because of choice. Who wouldn’t take the path of least resistence? Water doesn’t even have brain and it is still smart enough to figure that out. Honestly, my gay and lesbian friends are who they because they are wired that way. Just as I’m wired to really Dutch Chocolate Almon ice cream and hate plain old Vanilla.
3. I’d have to answer no to this one. I do have a family member who we all knew would be gay when he grew up, but he never expressed any doubt to me personally.
4. Half and Half on this one. My church believes that homosexuals are sacred and loved by God, but the church will not allow them serve in a ministerial capacity. That’s being debated in our church and could change.
5. Of course, I’d be happy to share the Gospel with them. As well as my feeling regarding homosexuality and Christianity. I do not believe the two to be incompatible at all.
–Rock On Shushie - and have a good weekend. If you’re feeling up to it, we could an article from Religion Editor over at PolitPorn!
April 11, 2008 at 3:22 pm. Permalink.
anita replied:
1. Homosexuality isn’t a sin. It’s simply another example of God’s creative design, and that the few Biblical passages used by some to condemn homosexuality are culturally bound and not to be universally applied across the ages.
2. Besides my wife and I? Uh yes. I’m good friends with dozens of same-sex couples and know of countless others. Within my personal circle I know of couples that have been together from a few years to over fifty years.
3. Obviously I can count myself in there but yes, I’ve walked with many women through their self-discovery and coming out process. It’s often a painful experience not because of the reality of being gay but because of people’s responses to the gay person. Realizing one is gay often answers many questions for the individual and brings a level of wholeness they hadn’t yet known.
4. In the Lutheran Church, GLBTQ people can’t be ordained and officiate at the table of Christ yet gay church members are welcome to bake the bread that’s broken at the table. Fortunately the congregation I attend is one that openly affirms the life and ministry of GLBTQ people and so as an ordained clergywoman (in another denomination) I’ve stood at the table on many occasions. As a whole, the Lutheran Church (ELCA) has a long way to go.
5. Without hesitation. With that said, and to make it more applicable for me, were someone with extreme anti-gay views to come to me it would be a joy to share my faith with them, but then the question is, could they receive anything from me given that I’m a lesbian or would their intolerance prevent them from wanting anything I’d have to share.
April 11, 2008 at 3:35 pm. Permalink.
jaklumen replied:
This is a very sensitive subject for me, but since you have provided a safe environment here, I’ll post as I have done before.
1. For me, and for my faith, homosexual intimacy is a sin. Experiencing homosexual feelings is not a sin.
I do experience these feelings in my life, but I choose not to carry them out. I know others who have chosen to do the same.
DKN, I agree that you cannot see inside our brains. Please respect my decision, even if you don’t agree with it. I would share this journey with those who wish to take it, but would force it on no one. I am a firm believer in free will (agency) and I would not deny anyone of their right to choose.
2. Yes, of course. The list includes family members as well as friends.
I would hope that I could be seen as “safe”. Unfortunately, I can’t wear a sign that indicates such. I remember seeing two lesbian moms with their little girl when I was out on a daddy-daughter date but feeling that my maleness and seeming outward “straightness” presented a communication obstacle to sharing mutual joys of raising a child.
3. Hmmm, good question. I’m not sure if I’ve really met anyone at the point of “questioning” or discovery. I have known people before they decided to express such more openly, however.
4. Allow me to make a clarification. I do not have issues with the doctrine of my faith concerning such matters. I do have issues with the attitudes of some members of my faith, however, in that they do not treat it with enough compassion and sensitivity. There is not quite enough gentleness with those who wish to change, and not enough tolerance with those who do not. Tolerance does not mean a change in doctrine, however.
5. The only issue would be if the person expressed interest in joining my faith, as that person would not likely be allowed. That does not stop them from learning about it from me or anyone else, although full-time missionaries would spend more time with someone obviously wishing to join.
People are people, regardless of faith or spiritual beliefs. The attitude I see that is very, very prevalent in our society, regardless of sexual preference, is more or less in wars over identification. Most seem to assume that you must identify as 100% straight or 100% gay (or you are 100% for the “straight” team or 100% for the “GLBT” team), or at least that is how it appears to me. although I have repeatedly received attitudes of “you are either for us, or against us.” I don’t like playing politics or choosing sides. I am not duplicitous, self-loathing, or fake because of my choices. Unfortunately, it would seem that those who understand best are those who have chosen as I have. That, apparently, is human nature regardless of the subject at hand. People often fear that wish they do not personally experience or fully comprehend, at least from my experience.
April 11, 2008 at 6:25 pm. Permalink.
sacredpsyc replied:
Do you believe homosexuality is a sin? Can you clarify why/why not?
My knowledge of the word “sin” means “missing the mark of G-d” … using that definition I certainly do not see being gay as a sin … whereas judging and condemning others based on their sexual identity or any other reason would seem to qualify as “sin” much more easily … however, I prefer the Tibetan understanding that we all suffer ignorance … translated as “to ignore what your deepest soul knows.” Again, being genuinely gay (and I have yet to meet someone pretending to be so) requires paying attention to one’s deepest soul, pariculary with the price paid in a homophobic culture …
Do you know anyone who is(has been) in a same sex relationship? I live in an interfaith community of about a hundred where @ 50% are gay … we are known in the gay community as a vacation from hate …
Have you known anyone when they were first discovering or questioning homosexual feelings? yes
If you are the member of a church body, do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed towards homosexuals in your church? In our ecclesia (the Greek for church means “the gathered together ones”; synonymous with the Eastern idea of sangha) there is no discrimination other than our ongoing human neuroses … all ways are honored and all are welcome as long as one agrees to practice the religion of kindness … which most of us fail at … and learn …
One great teacher was flamboyant gay man hosting a fundraiser for our HIV/AIDS outreach in Soho a dozen years or so ago … Kali Das opened the evening with this … “People ask me whether it’s harder to be a gay man in America or a black man … It’s simple … I didn’t have to tell my mother I’m black!”
If you are a Christian or follower of a particular faith- if someone came to you expressing interest in your faith but was unwilling to leave a homosexual relationship in order to do so, would you still offer to teach them? … trained as a Baptist minister in 1983 I have been in and out of all kinds of conversations on this … some of the worst prejudice towards gay has come from a famous Hindu guru in our country … ignorance knows no bounds …
If you are a Christian or follower of a particular faith- if someone came to you expressing interest in your faith but was unwilling to leave a homosexual relationship in order to do so, would you still offer to teach them? …obviously not an issue … my goal is to hear your view as clearly as I can … to express m view as clearly as I can … and to find the common ground that allows us to be healing agents in a troubled world …
April 11, 2008 at 8:45 pm. Permalink.
DKN replied:
Hold the phone - I’m a little opinionated, yes. But I’m not meaning to be disrespectful of your decision, jaklumen, but I don’t think its insane of me to not understand it. I see no difference between the acts of love (sex) and love itself (feelings) in most instances. So your choice to not act upon your sexuality is confusing to me, personally. I’m not saying people shouldn’t make that choice, it’s none of my business, but I do honestly believe that a lot of people think that there is a “cure” for homosexuality - which is what I was trying to get at - and it sounds like you would agree with me that it’s not possible, especially if you site choice and free will as your reasoning.
April 11, 2008 at 8:52 pm. Permalink.
shush replied:
DKN and Jaklumen: Please keep in mind that having a difference of opinion does NOT constitute disrespect of any kind. DKN states that she doesn’t think people can be reprogrammed, Jaklumen states that people can choose to live a lifestyle other than the one they feel drawn to on an emotional level- both are right, aren’t they? I’ve known gay men that have chosen to marry women, and they still admit that they are attracted to some men and only have feelings towards their wives, not all women. So DKN is right, isn’t she, that desire can’t really be “taught”? And Jaklumen, thus, is also right- people can choose to live a life other than the one they are naturally drawn to, if they feel they have a reason.
The question, then, becomes one of if there is a reason. Some people feel that God desires them to align themselves with a certain way, regardless of the way they are created. Others feel that God created people to naturally ascribe to the proper way and thus homosexuality must be part of God’s sacred plan. I won’t say who I feel is right- I know what I feel in my heart but this blog isn’t about my feelings, it’s about rationality and compassion.
I believe the compassionate thing to do is to hold people’s hands so they don’t stumble as they find their path.
April 11, 2008 at 10:43 pm. Permalink.
jaklumen replied:
I can understand difference of opinion; I’m just anal-retentive with expectations that it should be expressed as such, and not seemingly as fact.
I also believe DKN is subtly attacking the ex-gay effort, which is NOT cool. If I had my way, it would be a very laconic and laissez-faire effort– those that are not interested, need never apply. But because it’s often aligned with evangelical interests, it sometimes is more “in your face” than is comfortable for some, at least for me, anyway.
“Cure” is a strong word, which I would rarely use, or be extremely hesitant to do so. “Manage” has been the one I have seen more often in use in my support group.
No, I do NOT believe people are born gay. The scientific evidence is inconclusive either way, although I know people will fight bitterly over a genetic basis (most scientists would be hard pressed to point to a correlation of any kind). Epigenomes haven’t even been cracked yet, and we don’t fully understand the intricate relationship between “nature” and “nuture”. Politics have too thoroughly tainted the matter for there to be much of an objective discussion. People honestly feel they have something to lose if the studies tilt one way or the other, and I really do believe manipulation has been involved.
To return to the matter, #5 could be reworded more particularly to the subject of which I speak. If someone sees value in some of the reparative/reorientation therapy theories, but not in the context of reorientation (for example– gender esteem, authenticity in emotions, fulfillment of emotional needs, and letting go of past hurts) then of course I would be willing to share. In other words, if someone sees value there apart from any sort of redirection in sexuality, OK, cool. It’s not the path for everyone, and I don’t have a problem if they are able to take away something useful from it even if they reject the end goals.
We have a right to defend ourselves and assertively state where we stand. We are often attacked on both sides– from Christians (esp. evangelicals) and gays alike. We are pressured into speaking ill of one side or the other. For those of us that experience attractions to both sexes, we are even more subject to being branded traitorous or deceitful– at best, we get the “oh, ok, it’s fine to be you, as long as you root for us.” We often can’t win, because we go one way, those on the opposite side hate us. If we stay where we are, then possibly those on both sides hate us.
This is just a statement of my frustration. I’m sick and tired of it; again, the only ones who tend to leave me alone are the ones walking right beside me. I don’t mean to give offense, but I really find certain pat statements annoying, especially when they are repeated after I’ve explained my circumstances.
April 11, 2008 at 11:38 pm. Permalink.
e2c replied:
jaklumen, i have a great deal of sympathy with your views, though i am not of the same faith.
Without getting into a Q & A thing here, I’ll just say the following:
1. I do believe that we live in a fallen world, and that there’s plenty of evidence of human imperfection around us.
2. I believe that the love of God is both redemptive and unconditional (meaning God’s love toward us). But we humans are very, very good at attaching tons of conditions to everything…
3. I do think that the church (meaning all who profess faith in Christ, regardless of denomination) has been both terribly lacking in compassion and willfully blind toward the suffering and struggles of many - very much including those whose sexual orientation isn’t quite (in some way or another) kosher - whatever “kosher” means 9could be many things, I’m not singling out same-sex affinities here).
4. There are so many, many choices to make in life - what if I feel so enraged at someone that I want to kill them? Normal people - driven to desperation by difficult circumstances - really *do* feel this way at times. But would acting on those impulses be right?
5. So… perhaps (and *no* disprespect intended *anyone* involved in this discussion)… maybe there are some uncomfortable choices that people feel they must make. And maybe there are true moral absolutes. It’s not the job of the church (or any other group of religious people) to go around condemning others for their sexuality, their sexual attractions, etc. - but it *is* incumbent upon the church to be merciful (as Christ was and is merciful), loving (as Christ was and is loving) and - here’s one of the biggies - compassionate.
If those of us (like me!) who profess to be followers of Christ actually started acting like we were serious about him, his ministry, and his commands, the world would be a very different place. It’s incumbent upon us to deal with our own bad choices (in whatever ways we are *not* living as he lived) and do the right thing.
If/when we actually *do* that, maybe the ones among us who are without sin can start casting stones. But hey - there’s none among us without sin, so….
This says it better than I can - James 2:13:
“For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.”
and (because I am writing this comment, and I am responsible for what I’m saying here), this -
“Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.” (Ps. 19:14).
Grace and peace to all of you!
e.
April 12, 2008 at 2:12 am. Permalink.
e2c replied:
How interesting (or not!) that this very thread has now been comment-spammed.
Shush, do you have word verification (or some such) enabled yet?
EDIT: (from shush) I do indeed, and it catches link-spam and other kinds of spam, but doesn’t always get that kind of sensible text spam. Ah, well…
April 12, 2008 at 2:18 am. Permalink.
Jersey replied:
1. Do you believe homosexuality is a sin? Can you clarify why/why not?
I believe in live and let live, so long as your actions harm no one else. I cannot justify it, as all that I believe comes from experience, not some black-and-white text.
2. Do you know anyone who is(has been) in a same sex relationship?
Some gay friends of mine.
3. Have you known anyone when they were first discovering or questioning homosexual feelings?
Yeah…me.
4. If you are the member of a church body, do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed towards homosexuals in your church?
Disagree. I keep my mouth shut, tho, because we are all entitled to our opinions, even if we disagree with them.
5. If you are a Christian or follower of a particular faith - if someone came to you expressing interest in your faith but was unwilling to leave a homosexual relationship in order to do so, would you still offer to teach them?
Teach them what? That they are “vile” and “disgusting” sinful creatures doomed to eternal hell because that is the way they were born, or doomed to at least one more life after this one because this is how genetics, nothing that is under control, made them? That’s amongst the gazillion reasons why I no longer adhere to any established creed. It’s not for me to choose what of their tenets I can believe and not believe.
April 12, 2008 at 4:16 am. Permalink.
Bad replied:
1. No. I do not believe in “sin.” I believe things either moral or immoral, and have to be justified as such by explaining directly what is wrong or harmful about something. So thus, I also do not believe that homosexuality is intrinsically harmful.
On the other hand, prejudice against homosexuals has caused a simply heartbreaking amount of suffering and horror. What is worse than families being torn apart because parents are taught to detest their children, are or even just less close and honest with each other because of it? Or people living their entire lives isolated with self-loathing secrets? Or marriages that end in divorce? There are so many stories like this that I know both personally and from elsewhere that it hurts to even think about counting up all the misery these ideas have caused. And to think that these ideas are almost certainly completely pointless and needless… that makes it even worse.
2. Yes. In fact, I even know people who are in a relationship with someone who was formerly of the same sex, but is now transgendered and is now of the opposite sex.
3. Yes. Not sure what more to say, other than it was pretty obvious at the time that they were gay even though they didn’t know or admit it to themselves yet.
4. N/A
5. N/A
April 12, 2008 at 4:38 am. Permalink.
fisticmystic replied:
1. As a Christian I believe that homosexual behavior is a sin, but being tempted is not a sin.
Yes, see answer #2.
My faith doesn’t do “sentiments.” We teach principles, and I do agree with the principles of my Christian faith.
2. Yes, I have had friends who wrestled with their sexuality.
3. (”Have you known anyone when they were first discovering or questioning homosexual feelings?”
4. (”If you are the member of a church body, do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed towards homosexuals in your church?”
5. Yes, I am currently acting as a spiritual mentor to one person who has been acting out on sexual urges that my faith rejects.
April 12, 2008 at 4:56 am. Permalink.
dogeatery replied:
Homosexuality is just another sexual preference in a wide range of them. Why must we label, ostracize, and scrutinize a group of people for their sexuality when we don’t do the same to, say, practitioners of S&M? Labeling people as ‘gay’ or ’straight’ also discounts the so-called ‘bi-sexuals.’ Preferring one sex/gender over the other is just one possible sexual turn-on, the same as preferring to be whipped, touched gently, orally stimulated, surrounded by others, etc. Why do Christians not single out people of these other sexual categories?
April 12, 2008 at 5:59 am. Permalink.
DKN replied:
“I also believe DKN is subtly attacking the ex-gay effort, which is NOT cool.”
Yeah, you could say that. And I’m not ashamed to have that opinion at all.
April 12, 2008 at 2:30 pm. Permalink.
DKN replied:
Dogeatery - I agree with you completely. But homosexuality isn’t a preference, thats a misnomer. It is widely accepted among sexologists and those of us who study human sexuality (I’m hoping to go into this field professionally someday) that there is a LITERAL difference between sexual preference and sexual orientation. Orientation is, yes, merely a label - Gay, straight, bi, etc are examples of orientation. What you like to do or have done to you in bed ie certain sex acts, is a preference. With whom is your orientation. But yeah, overall who cares, right? As long as no one gets hurt - whatever floats your boat.
April 12, 2008 at 2:40 pm. Permalink.
fisticmystic replied:
I already commented once, but let me add two cents to my original two cents worth. In biological terms, homosexuality is nothing more than an unsuccessful reproductive strategy. And in personal terms, I’ve never understood why some people insist on defining their personhood by their preferred method of sexual gratification. In other words, it seems like there should be more significant personal and natural attributes that define who you are, than sexual orientation.
April 12, 2008 at 4:13 pm. Permalink.
wvhillcountry replied:
Once again, great post shush, I actually has a post ready to send last night but wanted to think on it more before I posted.
1. Do you believe homosexuality is a sin? Can you clarify why/why not? I have struggled with this question for a long time. I was raised in a very strict environment that was very homophobic and it was hard for me to even consider that homosexuality could possibly be ok. But as my understanding of God grew, I came to the realization that he created all and his love covers everyone. In reading the bible I found many scriptures that condemns certain behaviors that in today’s world are no longer considered sins. Everything form wearing cotton blended shirts to tattoos, divorce, shaving your head or wearing too fine of clothing. So I am no longer willing to follow the letter of the law but to look for the heart of the law. I always try to remember Judge not least you be judged.
2. Do you know anyone who is(has been) in a same sex relationship? Including myself, yes many. I’ve seen relationships that were little more than one night stands to relationships that have lasted their lifetimes….the same as I see in heterosexual relationships.
3. Have you known anyone when they were first discovering or questioning homosexual feelings? I can only speak to my own journey when I first realized my orientation. But I have to say that I would not wish being gay on anybody but I do almost feel sorry for straight people who have never had to question and explore themselves in such a deeply meaningful way. A child is born straight and grows up normal in this society, they do what everyone else does and they date and they go out in-groups and they are considered socially acceptable. Another child is born gay and grows up knowing that they are different from the “norm”. They grow up questioning their feelings toward the same sex. They grow up curious but ashamed because family, religion, and society tells them that they are wrong or bad. A gay child has to look at their every thought and feeling and understand that difference in themselves. If that child admits to being gay, they face ridicule and isolation. If they don’t admit their orientation, they are forced to hide who and what they are. Their lives take on an added dimension of secrecy and play acting to fit in with their peers. It is a rough journey but well worth the effort.
4.If you are the member of a church body, do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed towards homosexuals in your church? My denomination states that homosexuality is living an un christlike lifestyle but all are welcome to the table. It seems to be a bit confused in it’s thinking. So I agree with part of it’s doctrine and disagree with part.
5.If you are a Christian or follower of a particular faith- if someone came to you expressing interest in your faith but was unwilling to leave a homosexual relationship in order to do so, would you still offer to teach them? I would send them to my minister because right now I am not sure of my faith or If I will stay with my denomination. But I wouldn’t hesitate to tell them about the Love of God. I would tell them about the place God has in my life but I can’t speak for any church at this time.
April 12, 2008 at 10:00 pm. Permalink.
DKN replied:
Fisticmystic - I’ve often thought that too, like what’s the point of even saying you are gay or even saying that you are straight? Why do we do that? I think it’s because who we love is very important to our personhood. Being gay isn’t a method of sexual gratification. That would be the equivalent of people going around and saying “well you know, I’m really into oral sex so I’m an oralist”. I bet most gay people don’t define themselves strictly as being gay, how would anyone even know that? But yes, it is a significant part of who they are. Just at it is significant in my life that I happen to love men and not other women. Our perception that HOW they have sex is all up in our face is a myth, imo. How anyone likes to have sex is a mystery until you’ve done it with them.
And actually, I would argue that it is a very successful reproduction strategy in the sense that it helps to control the population. And it gives us an extra hand at raising children that have no parents. In animal communities it is found that rates of homosexuality go up when the population is booming and that most animals will hand off some of their young to the ones that don’t reproduce for help. And that as soon as the population dwindles again, the rates of homosexuality go down or even revert. The most famous example of that is Winnie and Cass, the central park zoo penguins. They were a male-male couple and nest mates for (i think) 7 years until the baby rate went down and they started mating with females again, which just happened recently. Google it, it’s an amazing story.
April 12, 2008 at 10:05 pm. Permalink.
shush replied:
DKN and FisticMystic: The major difference between a sexual preference (such as bondage) and sexual orientation is that if someone is in a bondage relationship, it isn’t immediately obvious to the outside world. They can go out on a date with their partner and people won’t be looking at them and saying, “wow, they’re into BDSM”- (unless they are in their leathers *lol*) whereas if a homosexual goes out with their partner, well, there it is. If they invite someone over for dinner, there it is. If they mention their partner in a conversation, there it is. And it is this obviousness of sexual orientation that makes a gay person so open to condemnation. People don’t go around protesting BDSM because who would they be protesting? They don’t know, it isn’t “there”, it isn’t “obvious”, so people ignore it. Whereas homosexuality is something that we all eventually come face to face with in our daily lives, whether we are gay or not.
That, I think is the major difference. If I were to think BDSM is distasteful and ungodly (not saying that I do) I would simply have to blank it out of my mind. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is something I can’t ignore because I may see two guys holding hands and, boom- there it is. Which is hard for people who believe it is ungodly and absolutely disgusting- they believe homosexuality is being shoved in their faces simply by partners doing what partners who are affectionate do.
Thus, it is an issue and we discuss it.
April 12, 2008 at 11:28 pm. Permalink.
goldnsilver replied:
Do you believe homosexuality is a sin?
No. I don’t believe in God and therefore the idea of sin.
Do you know anyone who is(has been) in a same sex relationship?
Yes, a few. My sister is gay, but she has not had a relationship yet.
Have you known anyone when they were first discovering or questioning homosexual feelings?
Yes, as above, my sister. It was not dramatic or heavily emotional. She figured it out when she was very young - basically she felt nothing but friendship towards men and would have preferred to play ‘catch-and-kiss’ with the girls. It took her a while to figure out this innate feeling was though.
If you are the member of a church body, do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed towards homosexuals in your church?
I am not a member of a church, so can’t comment.
If you are a Christian or follower of a particular faith- if someone came to you expressing interest in your faith but was unwilling to leave a homosexual relationship in order to do so, would you still offer to teach them?
If I were, I would. Everyone sins everyday by religious standards - I think it would be hypocritical not to teach them. I think religious put too much emphasis on a relatively minor section of the bible - its not even in the ten commandments.
April 13, 2008 at 1:33 am. Permalink.
fisticmystic replied:
DKN, your theory that homosexuality is a successful reproductive strategy is interesting, but not related to my assertion. I said that in biological terms it is unsuccessful, your response is grounded in theories of social engineering, not biology.
Shush, I would ask you to distinguish between people who believe that homosexuality is disgusting and people who believe that it is immoral. Some people hold to both opinions, but most people I know (and I am a fundamentalist Christian) object to it strictly on moral grounds, not because they’re personally repulsed by it.
WVHillcountry, I think your logic shows that you’re intelligent but miseducated on the Bible. There’s a lot you’re not accounting for, and I don’t have the time or space to explain it all here. Suffice it to say that there’s a difference between the civil code of Israel and the religious laws of the Jews. The religious laws were (are) based on principles of holiness, which Jews and Christians believe are timeless. The civil laws (no tattoos, treat your slaves fairly, always build a parapet on the roof of every new house) were made for a specific place and time.
I’d be happy to discuss each of these matters in more depth, but this isn’t a practical forum for it. But I’m sure you all know how to find me.
April 13, 2008 at 2:22 am. Permalink.
shush replied:
@ fisticmystic: I was making an example about a particular group of people who feel a specific way and a reaction they have- not saying “this is how all Christians feel.” Some people find it disgusting, some people find it ungodly. Although, in all fairness, it would have been more appropriate and precise for me to have said, “people who think it ungodly OR disgusting.”
April 13, 2008 at 4:51 am. Permalink.
wvhillcountry replied:
Fisticmystic,
“I don’t have the time or space to explain it all here”
Yes I agree with that statement which is why I was speaking in very broad and general terms in my response to the questions asked.
“WVHillcountry, I think your logic shows that you are intelligent but miseducated on the Bible.”
While I will be the first to admit that I am not a biblical scholar, and I have never been to a seminary institution in my life, I am not totally ignorant of the bible. But the scriptures that people frequently throw at me to prove that homosexuality is a sin are also contained within the same text and scripture as the “laws” I referred to. I was expressing my opinion and in no way was I trying to prove anything to anyone. And while I may not be as educated about the bible as you, trust that I am intelligent enough to read it and draw from it the basic concepts of loving your neighbor as yourself and judge not lest you be judged.
April 13, 2008 at 8:40 pm. Permalink.
Vanessa replied:
Great post, shush: Glad to meet you in the blogosphere….
1. Is homosexuality a sin? Why or why not?
No, I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. I know that there are a variety of verses in the Bible that some persons use to prove that it is, but I believe that such verses were written to address behaviors that are really not related to the joy of homosexual orientation, which is beyond just a scope of sexual behavior. I do not make any distinction between homosexual feelings and acting upon them; neither is a sin in my mind. I am a Christian, and I fully believe in God, and have great respect and admiration for Jesus and his teachings; I firmly believe that we are all created in God’s image, and if we create loving relationships with a person of the same gender, than God welcomes and honors that.
2. Do I know anyone? Yep, myself, my partner, and several friends, and a few relatives here and there.
3. Growing up? Again, in addition to myself, I have known several young people as they are going through their process of self-knowledge regarding their sexual orientation; it is more painful for some than others. It is not a sexual preference, nor is it a lifestyle. It is an orientation, I believe fixed at birth, and even though I believe that our sexuality is fluid, I think our orientation, meaning who we have our strongest sexual, affectional, emotional, psychic, and spiritual attraction to, is pretty fixed.
4. Agree with the church regarding homosexuality? I guess it depends on the church and/or the denomination. I am currently a member of a Methodist church, along with my partner and our daughter. We were both, my partner and I, raised Catholic. The Catholic church was not embracing enough for me, so we found a faith that we believe is. Our congregation is very embracing and nurturing, but the Methodist church in terms of the Book of Discipline has a long way to go. I am embarking on a personal quest soon to educate my congregation about religion and its impact on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered persons; some individuals kill themselves when rejected by those that they seek acceptance from, including family, friends, peers and churches. Anyone seen the movie “For the Bible Tells Me So”? I hear it is phenomenal in telling the personal stories of heartache and hope…….
5. Would I teach a person who is “actively Homosexual”? That is how I hear this question, no offense meant. I absolutely would; I am overjoyed when I meet other LGBT persons who have a desire to have God, or Jesus, in their lives, if they are Christian. I know that God has blessed me throughout my life, and would be glad and resolved to share that with others.
Peace and love, Vanessa
April 14, 2008 at 3:36 pm. Permalink.
jaklumen replied:
Yeah, you could say that. And I’m not ashamed to have that opinion at all.
That’s unfortunate. My respect for your views (since I don’t know you, it cannot be for you personally) has fallen.
It would be one thing if you had condemned groups with aggressive evangelical tones, who seem to be forcing their views on others. I categorically reject such an approach.
It is quite another to make a blanket condemnation against them all. For those of us who simply have an open door policy, and have expressly said it is not for everyone, and people are free to take it or reject it as they please… such a condemnation is not deserved.
What have we ever done against you, really? Are we harming you? I think not. If I say “I think you are subtly attacking us”, and you say, “Yes, I guess I am”, then do not be surprised in the slightest if I seek to defend myself and my own.
If I cannot get respect, I at least ask for tolerance. LEAVE US OUT OF IT. We made our decisions. Yes, I understand you find it confusing. Yes, I understand you may think it is self-conflict. But that doesn’t make our choices any less valid than yours.
April 14, 2008 at 4:39 pm. Permalink.
shush replied:
Vanessa: Welcome to my blog! It’s always good to find another compassionate soul.
@ Jaklumen: Confusion often births discomfort which can lead to anger and frustration, on both parts. DKN is someone who is fully accepting of her own sexuality, and to her it seems like someone who isn’t must not truly love themselves. Keep in mind that her anger towards the “ex-gay” movement likely comes from the belief that they (ex-gays) are causing people to hate and thus harm themselves. You feel differently, obviously, but at least DKNs discomfort comes from compassion and a desire for people to embrace their sexuality and have a healthy sexual life, not from hatred.
@ DKN: If I’m putting words in your mouth, just slap me.
April 14, 2008 at 6:06 pm. Permalink.
e2c replied:
I really DON’T think it’s the “ex-gay movement” that’s birthing hatred - more like people who find them convenient for political purposes + people who have unreasoning, irrational fear and hatred toward homosexuals, lesbians - and likely many other kinds of people who are Not Like Them.
Some of the ex-gay movement is a real mess, but not all of it - or the individuals involved therein. From what I can see, it seems as if some of the better folks in Exodus and Exodus-affiliated organizations are starting to come to terms with some of the damaging things they’ve been involved in (the whole basis of the “reparative therapy” theory being one of those things). I think there are far more nuances to all of this - both ex-gay and ex-ex-gay - than the media ever shows.
For an interesting ex-ex-gay take, Peterson Toscano’s site is very good, as is Ex-Gay Watch. (Google will get you there.)
April 14, 2008 at 10:22 pm. Permalink.
e2c replied:
Oh - for a very reasoned, nuanced take on things ex-gay, check out Disputed Mutability’s blog. (Again, Google will get you there.) She and P. Toscano are good friends, despite their divergent POVs (on certain things, at least).
FWIW, I don’t know any of these folks, and am not involved in an ex-gay or ex-ex-gay groups, but I’ve been around a lot of the former.
April 14, 2008 at 10:28 pm. Permalink.
jaklumen replied:
Interesting links– I took a quick gander at both of them.
I’m familar with Ex-Gay Watch.
Understand though, that I have been out there. I’m familiar with Affliction L.A., and a few other groups that really ARE on the warpath. Some are very intent on tearing down ecclesiastical leaders they see as hostile or otherwise against them. I also know Affliction L.A. has *specifically* marginalized exgay efforts by saying anyone that has had success must be bisexual, really, and not “truly” gay.
I’ve also caught wind of the “induced homosexuality” theory– I haven’t researched it well enough to provide citations, but the gist of it seems to be aimed to specifically discredit reparative/reorientation theories. In other words, “If this stuff works for you, you were never really gay to begin with. You are NOT one of us; you are different.”
How’s that supposed to make me feel? Add to this sentiments that bisexuals are exercising “Heterosexual Privilege”. I sometimes get expressions of envy from some exgays, claiming I *must* have it easier. Then I have gotten veiled expressions of distrust from some gays, against with an attitude of “well, you are not one of us, really.”
Those sorts of sentiments almost seem to say:
1) My homosexuality (or bisexuality, whatever) is not really real
2) I have an easy way out that others don’t
3) I am not their kind of different.
Going back to the first example, men’s heads in support groups I’ve been in start to spin when I say my wife is in the same boat. I am quick to remind them that the knife cuts both ways (so to speak), and any perceived advantages are balanced out by the actual *dis*advantages.
Taking a quote from Disputed Mutability, and going back to reference the “only bisexuals report a change in orientation”:
since it seems to me that most of us who experience attraction change attain a bisexually-attracted state rather than a heterosexual one
Either way, there is a precedent to the idea that sexuality is not fixed– first the Kinsey scale, then the Klein grid.
There is a LOT of backwater areas to this debate, and I’ll say repeatedly I don’t think it’s always civil, reasoned, or even fair. You said
more like people who find them convenient for political purposes + people who have unreasoning, irrational fear and hatred toward
and you could just as easily finish it with “evangelicals, Bible-thumpers, and other organized religion folk”. Hate to say it, but the “they insulted us first” argument people may be inclined to toss out just doesn’t fly with me. It *is* a political game, and the loudest voices fighting to make sure their voice is the loudest are usually the ones garnering the most attention.
I don’t buy all the intellectual reasonings, either. How does picking apart what a person says, writes, does ultimately strengthen their efforts? And why do people seem bent on pitting me against my friends, just because they seem to be on different sides?
April 16, 2008 at 7:16 am. Permalink.
shush replied:
@ Jaklumen: What I seem to be hearing, both from you AND the people you are quoting, is a desire for recognition of pain. You want to be recognized for your own pain and struggle and don’t want it discredited by other peoples pat generalizations.
And the generalizations you gave, such as bisexuals being able to pick heterosexuality, also seem to speak to a kind of pain- as in you ARE given a choice, but gay people aren’t. And even disputed mutability’s quote was asking for a recognition of a kind of pain, as she was saying that achieving “true” heterosexuality seems impossible.
Pain, pain, pain. That is what this is. Pain for you, pain for the ones trying to influence you for validation of their own struggles, pain for those trying to work apologetically on behalf of all sides- it all comes down to pain.
You must not forget, in your own fight to get recognition for your own state, that by biting back so hard you might cause pain to others. You and your wife are a very special example and what you have achieved might not be achievable for everyone. You ought to be recognized for your choices and your struggles without being marginalized, but what I hear from every corner seems to be, “recognize me, I hurt too!”
And how does one argue against that?
April 16, 2008 at 12:57 pm. Permalink.
shush replied:
Oh, and also- the “they insulted us first” argument DOES hold water, in that Gay people as an entire body are not necessarily following a doctrine of love and forgiveness, but Christians are. Our behavior is inexcusable not because it is insulting and offensive (me saying “our” not as you and I but myself and ALL Christians) not because it says insulting things, but because it is contrary to the doctrine we profess. How is Christianity supposed to be the hope of all mankind when the words it uses towards gay people, by and large, are so irrational? It is one thing to use the Bible as an argument to other people who profess belief in it, but to try to use the Bible to convict people who are not subject to it’s commands simply doesn’t make sense.
On that level I personally believe the Christian community DOES owe the Gay community (I know, more gross generalizations) an apology, because we’ve no right to expect them to live by our doctrine when they don’t share it, and the cruelty that is a tradition in SOME (note, I did say SOME) Christian circles is simply inexcusable. People apologize on behalf of their family all the time, and if these intolerant Christians are truly our brothers and sisters, there are apologies owed.
Not discrediting your pain or your struggles, Jaklumen, because they are very valid, but simply going in circles saying, “you were mean, no, YOU were mean, no you were mean, no YOU were mean,” dooms this whole adventure from the start. I am willing to concede that Christianity was mean, period, no expectation of recanting from Homosexuals. In time perhaps other Christians will follow suit, and there can be healing.
April 16, 2008 at 1:05 pm. Permalink.
e2c replied:
Oh man. I didn’t intend to start a firestorm here!
Apologies if I have… but one of the reasons I *do* think about both sides of this coin is that I’ve seen supposedly serious answers (given to people who are deeply torn about their sexuality) that are just so unfeeling. and I’m talking about the “nice” ones! (From reparative therapy advocates, not the outright “I hate fags” types.)
April 16, 2008 at 5:36 pm. Permalink.
jaklumen replied:
as in you ARE given a choice, but gay people aren’t
Yes and no. That’s still a marginalization of the common element. It’s also a marginalization that could be construed that attractions to both sexes does not present specific conflicts, which is not true.
I know you don’t intend it that way, but many, many others have said the same pretty much to mean, “You are different, you are not us, therefore nothing you have to say applies to us, whatsoever.”
Yes, we are different. But sometimes I really don’t think the resentment is deserved.
You and your wife are a very special example and what you have achieved might not be achievable for everyone.
There’s the rub. There is a PARTICULAR example where I have said repeatedly, “No, it does not offer particular advantages; in fact, it has had specific conflicts unto itself!” We *both* have shared both the impacts from within, and from without. It is sometimes VERY difficult for me to tell married guys in my support groups, “Well, I kinda know how your wife feels,” because… well, he just simply hasn’t shared that experience.
that by biting back so hard you might cause pain to others
A human failing. My Sifu (he’s about my age, and has a name, but such is not so relevant right now as his role as I see it) has told me that I ought to push when pulled, and pull when pushed; it is a central tenet to martial arts and Eastern thought, which we have discussed a great deal. I replied that such is not easy, for I *do* tend to push back when pushed.
I was known as “Way Fair” for a time at Scout camp, because I am sometimes very, very passionate about a sense of justice in everything. Nevertheless, I have considering Sifu’s counsel concerning expectations; while I can make expectations of myself, I cannot hold same to others– not being a matter of “shouldn’t”, but that they simply do not apply.
in that Gay people as an entire body are not necessarily following a doctrine of love and forgiveness
I don’t see it quite so generalized– but then, I rarely, if ever, go for the obvious conclusions. I have yet to meet queer folk that haven’t been exposed to a religion of the God of Abraham (a majority were raised Christian, but not all), and so I very directly point out that they are often railing against parents, friends, and experiences in childhood.
I see your point in that some have chosen to leave a Christian way of life behind. However, I do point out that many ARE fighting against something that they do know. Moreover, I assert that the ethics at large are not seen as universally Christian! Many who do are not of an Abrahamic faith have gone to great lengths to point that out, and therefore I do not see it unreasonable to hold them to it.
So, no, holding them to a Christian ideal may be ineffectual and not appropriate, but I *can* hold them to their ideals.
I am willing to concede that Christianity was mean, period, no expectation of recanting from Homosexuals.
I’ll agree that an apology is warranted, but as I was saying, it’s almost a “which came first, the chicken or the egg” argument here.
Now, I do not question that an apology would be the right thing to do, for it is. But again, speaking of “chicken or the egg”, if one is a “gay Christian”, well, then, which part has to apologize first?
I say a simultaneous apology is reasonable, because, if one is still a believer, how can they say that one is first, and the other second? “I am sorry for the actions lacking in judgment of both my evangelical/fundamentalist friends and my gay activist friends.” Now, I expect howls of protest at this point, but I say, “hateful” and “hypocritical” are hateful words, just as “sin” and “abomination” are, too.
I will not shut my eyes to the actions of those who see fit to tear us down at every turn. Not all go for the jugular– some have acted like jackals waiting for the carrion; eager to expose an ex-gay as false, self-loathing, duplicitous, etc., after the fall. I have no problem denouncing what I see as predatory political tactics.
@e2c: that are just so unfeeling. and I’m talking about the “nice” ones!
…which is why I tend to find the “ex-ex-gay” response so much backwash at times. Instead of saying, “this was my experience, and this, personally, did not work for me”, they seek to discredit the effort wholesale, which I think is patently unfair.
No doubt about it, the theories are constantly being refined. I also think the charge that they are supported primarily by ancedotal (as opposed to purely scientific) is absolutely fair. More specifically, the opposition has likely been good for the effort, generally, although I do not think it inappropriate to ask that it be respectful.
I’m not going to ask of others that which I do not ask myself. Again, I think it is ethically fair for both sides to say, “This is my experience, this is what worked for me, and it may or may not work for you.”
April 17, 2008 at 5:34 am. Permalink.
e2c replied:
@ jaklumen: One of the situations that’s very much in the “front” of my mind is an answer to an email by a severely depressed woman who indicated that she was even beginning to contemplate suicide. The response completely ignored that (among other things). She basically was told that she needed to go to church, get in touch with a reparative therapy specialist, and “accept her true femininity” (not a quote, but pretty close!) - and then she’d be just fine.
To my mind, that’s absolutely appalling. I hope and pray that the woman in question is safe and well… am sure you can understand why!
April 17, 2008 at 3:10 pm. Permalink.
e2c replied:
this article has a lot of material that gives me pause: http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/22/228
April 17, 2008 at 3:20 pm. Permalink.
fisticmystic replied:
This discussion has taken a lot of interesting turns, but I’d like to digress a little and address the underlying Judeo/Christian doctrine of sin/holiness.
I read where someone said that “sin” is a hateful word. It isn’t.
The doctrine of sin as it applies to homosexual behavior, in a nutshell: God’s most significant natural attribute is holiness, and any way in which we fail to live up to God’s standards is called sin. God created us to be his companions and friends, but we reject Him and choose our own way instead. That’s sin. Because God is holy, we unholy creatures can’t survive in His presence. So show His love for us He revealed himself to a chosen people (the Jews) through the laws and the prophets (the Old Covenant), and when that wasn’t enough to bridge the gap between us and Him, he incarnated Himself in human form (Jesus) to die as a one-time atoning sacrifice for everyone who would accept it. And of equal importance, He conquered death through his resurrection (this is the New Covenant). The New Covenant (usually referred to incorrectly as the New Testament) doesn’t cancel the Old Covenant, but supercedes it. Like when the government creates a new law to replace an old one. And the New Covenant rejects homosexual behavior just like the old one did, although prescribing no punishment for it.
I’ve explained all that to explain this: Since God has rejected homosexual behavior under both the Old and New Covenants, the tactic of criticizing obsolete Hebrew laws has no relevance.
Part of what troubles me about this whole debate me is the way that people seem to say, “I’m not a person - I’m a homosexual. If God rejects homosexuality, He’s rejecting me.” Please don’t misunderstand - most Christians don’t believe that God rejects you, the person, because of what you feel tempted to do. He rejects sin, and you’ll only be rejected if you decide that you love the sin more than you love the God who created you.
April 18, 2008 at 3:19 pm. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
fisticmystic - that was a very well thought out argument. However you are really missing something in it. Its really something basic.
You think these people simply choose to love the sin more than god.
I am going to use an analogy here. It is in no way what I think of homosexuals for those of you who want to jump on me. You are asking these people to change from being a cat to a dog simply because it is interpreted that God says so? It is impossible! They cannot change any more than you can change you being a heterosexual. No matter how much you want it. You can beat yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually all you want, and you CANNOT change it.
I can prove it too you. I can show you so much scientific, psychological evidence. I can show you how many of these people choose suicide because they feel so helpless…….
God makes us perfect. You have to believe in his plan. Having faith in him, means that you believe that he created homosexuals just as he created us. They have purpose of being. He loves us unconditionally inspite of ourselves. There is no heterosexual without sin.
Its so sad when I see arguements like yours. I despair. It is not God who rejects these people. Its other men who sit in judgement as God. People like you. Your interpretation of God’s word.
There are many of us out there that simply don’t feel the same way. We see things differently.
You make me feel very very sad. I want to cry at your heartlessness. You obviously have never been touched by the pain that this suffering causes to a person.
Who are you or anyone else here to JUDGE? Who are you to tell ANYONE else how to live? Do you walk on water? Are you without sin?
Think it over…. oh and while your at it.. I dedicated a song to you today on my own blog.
http://amberfireinus.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/song-of-the-day-pieces-of-you-jewel/
April 18, 2008 at 4:45 pm. Permalink.
joni replied:
No, I don’t personally believe homosexuality is a sin. I do not believe that scripture says that it is. I know the years I have spent crying out to God to please just set me free, to change me, to make me who He destined me to be. He’s faithful, He answered those prayers… and I’m still a lesbian.
Including myself, yes I do know many people. Majority are online friends… but I do have some friends around me as well.
Yes and those first discoverings, acceptances, and such are devastatingly painful. Convince me that someone would choose this, it would be impossible for you to convince me.
I agree with what my church expresses.. because they express love without judgement and have decided to leave the rest up to God.
This last questions makes my heart cry out in prayer to God that He would show up powerfully within the Church and set us free from our religious poles that stiffen our backsides and that truth and grace would liberate us!!
April 18, 2008 at 7:28 pm. Permalink.
fisticmystic replied:
amberfireinus, please allow me explain something that’s very fundamental to Christianity.
The Bible teaches us that you will live here on earth for 120 years if you’re remarkably healthy and very lucky. After that you will spend eternity either in God’s presence or separated from God.
Compared to eternity, your earthly life is nothing more than the blink of an eye.
If earthly gratification is more important to a person than an eternity of fulfilment in God, then they’ll choose sin over God. That isn’t heartlessness; it’s perspective.
One more thing: I reject the idea that for me to believe the Bible is an act of cruelty to anyone. I’m not judging or punishing anyone. I’ve merely answered a question posted in a blog. Don’t like it? Don’t read it.
April 19, 2008 at 3:50 pm. Permalink.
DarrenB replied:
Ok, here’s my take.
Homosexuality is sin (not my personal sin) the same way that anger is a sin (which has been, off and on, my sin).
As has been eloquently stated, ’sin’ simply means missing the mark set by God Himself. So, by definition of the word ’sin’, anger (and homosexuality) is a ’sin’.
I had a roomate in College that came out while we were roommates. It was disconcerting to see two guys liplocked on the couch in the common room.
My chuch holds the position that alcoholics can freely and openly attend as long as they don’t promote alcohol abuse as an alternative lifestyle choice. The same rule applies to homosexuals.
I would definitely mentor someone who is openly homosexual if they wanted to learn more about my spiritual beliefs.
The bottom line is that God gave His life so that sinners (like me) can have life and life to the full. Why would I deny that to another sinner?
April 29, 2008 at 6:44 pm. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
FisticMystic - Boy I do hope you walk on water then so you are not separated from God for YOUR sins. Gee how sad would that be?? Hope God spares you and has mercy on your soul an is actually a forgiving and loving God rather than one who is Vengeful and full of HATE. Gosh, come to think of it… isn’t Hate for your brother a sin? Seems to me I read that somewhere……?
April 29, 2008 at 9:26 pm. Permalink.
jaklumen replied:
e2c: One of the situations that’s very much in the “front” of my mind
Well, ecclesiastical leaders, IMHO, have a long way to go in general. There is a TREMENDOUS misunderstanding concerning abuse, for example, because perpetrators prey on trust– not just for the individual, but for the social networks they are in. For my faith, church comprises a very large social network that often transcends neighborhood and community boundaries. Therefore, abusers are very likely to manipulate boundaries of trust and hide behind outward perceptions and appearances.
We are especially vulnerable in the fact that our clergy is a lay one– not professionally trained or paid. I’ve said numerous times that I realize a Mormon bishop is not a counselor, and yet I believe it is necessary to explain such a context at times.
The uphill struggle is that just like trickle-down economics, information really doesn’t “trickle-down” well from the top. I think our general leaders have a good sense of what’s going on, but that isn’t going to be conveyed fully to the local leader. The member has to go through the arduous process of explaining how it is.
And that’s just how it is.
Right now, I cannot convey clearly enough how my mother’s abuse affected me. While the means of how it may or may not have affected my sexuality is anecdotal and unproven, I think it has weight, for ME.
You see, I think it really does boil down to expectations. I see people become very frustrated and angry because they expect certain things of others, and very especially when it comes to the controversial ones like Politics, Sex, Religion, and Money/Finances (which, oddly, the last one I find people ignoring more than the others).
Expectations like “my church should change”, “my congregation should change”, “they must change to accept me”, “they must”, “they must”, “they must”.
No, they shouldn’t. The only person who has the power to change is YOU. I’ve said it repeatedly before, I’ll say it repeatedly again: I am a believer in freewill. My Sifu said you cannot expect ANYTHING of anyone besides yourself. Such is the nature of expectations.
I’m not saying the conflict is invalid or is irrelevant. But the choice is always there. People have made ways to reconcile their decisions with their faith, for affirmative or for contrary.
Thus I also say that it is fairly fruitless for me to expect the ex-gay community to avoid absolutes, to extend their message with an open invitation and an open door, etc., etc., etc. … All I can expect is that I can avoid such absolutes, to extend my message with an open invitation and an open door, and so on.
Remember the old classic “I statements” in cognitive psychotherapy? If you say “I feel”, “I think”, “I remember”– who’s going to refute that? How can someone honestly say, “No, you do not feel that way, no, you do not think that way, no, your memory is mistaken” without looking like a jackass?
I do feel a bit discouraged when friends who have tried the ex-gay route give up, especially when they say they felt unsupported or unloved… in that decision. But if they say they take accountability for the decision they eventually made, and they speak for themselves, and do not blame others, then I respect that. If someone wishes to reconcile being gay as just that, and states accountability for their perceptions, their feelings, their experience– then it would be stupid of me to not support that.
I can choose for no one but myself. Problems arise when I expect others to choose differently– whether it be my church, my family, my friends, and so on and so forth. It seems to me that conflicts and contentions arise when I make expectations for those who are… not me.
Debates will go on as the days, weeks, years, decades, and millennia are long. But change… change starts with me, myself, and I. Others are welcome to come and go, but I will find only misery if I attempt to force their hand.
April 29, 2008 at 11:03 pm. Permalink.
shush replied:
Joni: You said, “he’s faithful, he’s answered those prayers… and I’m still a lesbian.” Wow! Well said.
May 1, 2008 at 1:11 pm. Permalink.
fisticmystic replied:
amberfireinus, I don’t see how you get hate out of what I posted. I believe in right and wrong, and I believe what the Bible says about homosexual behavior: that it is sin.
I do believe, though, that one can be forgiven. That’s redemption, and that’s the other side of the coin.
What I don’t believe is that one can be forgiven for a sin that is ongoing and unrepented. Redemption isn’t a get out of jail free card that you can play when you reach the pearly gates. It’s a gift that can only be received with a penitent attitude in a humble spiritual posture.
No, I’m not perfect and I hope I’m not coming off as “holier than thou.” I’m just a guy who knows what the Bible says and believes it, and is willing to share that with you.
May 5, 2008 at 5:33 pm. Permalink.
amberfireinus replied:
fisticmystic - thank you for your obviously heartfelt response.
Let me have you understand a few things. The bible has many things in it which are ambiguidous. Many of its teachings can be interpreted several ways.
There are passages in the bible that would have you sell your daughter into slavery, and have you marry the widow of your brother. But those concepts are considered no longer valid.
The problem with taking the bible and pointing it towards homosexuals is the fact that God created them this way. They do not have a choice in the matter. Many actually KILL themselves over it because they cannot handle it. They would rather die than be living in a sinful state.
It is God alone who can judge us. God obviously made homosexuality for a reason. It shows everywhere in the animal kingdom. Science actually shows differences in neuro-connectors in homosexuals.
You cannot ask someone to change how they were born. I believe that God is a loving God. Being Gay isn’t really the fun way out. It is not a card to be permiscuous. It is not some great club of sin. Most of the sin comes from people trying to stiffle that part of themselves and it exploding within them.
I understand that you personally aren’t homosexual. You have no concept of how it feels. But you being a follower of Jesus, someone who accepted lepers, prostitutes, and sinners alike should accept and not judge. Because that is God’s job alone.
Don’t be one of the reasons that these young people feel forced to take their own life. Which is the greater sin here??????
May 5, 2008 at 5:49 pm. Permalink.
fisticmystic replied:
amberfireinus, I’m going to be repeating myself a little bit here, but hopefully you’ll forgive me.
I know that the Bible (the Old Testament in particular) has a lot of rules and laws in it that we don’t observe today. That’s why it’s important to understand the context and meaning of what you read in the Bible. Some of the Bible is intended as history, some of it is geneological in nature, some of it represents civil laws for the societies in which it was written, some of it represents religious laws, and a large part of it is poetry.
The sections that deal with homosexuality, in both the Old and New Testaments, don’t deal with it as a civil law (as with issues of slavery, hair length, and architecture, for example) but as a matter of moral principle. The scriptures state that homosexual behavior (not temptation, but behavior) is an abomination to God.
The distinction between civil law and moral principle is significant because civil laws are temporal, but principles are timeless; i.e. you are required to have a license plate on your car because that’s the current law under our civil code; by contrast you’re required to refrain from killing your neighbor because to do so would be morally wrong. So the old saw that we ignore some biblical laws therefore we should ignore them all, it holds no water.
As far as your contention that God made people gay therefore he must have intended for them to act out on those physical and psychological urges, I reject that as well.
God made me the way I am, and sometimes I get angry with my kids and I want to hit them. Sometimes I get aroused by women other than my wife and I want to have sex with them. And sometimes I get aggravated with bad drivers on the highway and I feel like crashing my pickup truck into them. Does this mean that God wants me to be a child-beating, philandering, road raging jerk? No. He made me perfect (in his image) and I stray because I sometimes give in to the temptation to sin. He expects me to resist that temptation for a short time (life on earth) and trust Him to reward me in eternity.
Summary: God wants us to reject sin, trust Him to know what’s best for us, and wait for a reward that exceeds all we could ever imagine here on earth. I don’t think that’s too much for our Creator to expect of us.
May 6, 2008 at 8:45 pm. Permalink.
M54 replied:
“4. If you are the member of a church body, do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed towards homosexuals in your church?”
The sentiments in the local church I attend is the typical “love the sinner hate the sin”. God sees no difference in sin. The liar is as bad as the homosexual.
“5. If you are a Christian or follower of a particular faith- if someone came to you expressing interest in your faith but was unwilling to leave a homosexual relationship in order to do so, would you still offer to teach them?”
It’s very difficult to disciple someone who is not around.
May 7, 2008 at 9:37 pm. Permalink.